Curse

Ben-A-BoO · Aug 11, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by street peddler

maybe now the rit hatred will go away..

Yeah, maybe you are right ... after my temper cooled down a bit I started to work my builds over. I guess I just have to life with it... and after all I am having some big fun with the new changes.

Cheers and heads up

,
Timebandit

tacitus · Aug 11, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

The skill balances were pretty good overall. The change to desperation blow and drunken blow are very good and should bring ss more into line with other warrior builds.

The changes to passive skiils like aegis and long lasting hexs should encourage better game play rather than relying on skills on the bar. This is a good direction that Anet have taken and im pretty happy with this skill balance.

Zuranthium · Aug 11, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Patccmoi says he's already found some new builds for rits around the nerfs, so I'm just going to assume the Rit is not dead if y'all don't mind.

Pat could be given a banana peel and think there's a build for it that "works".

~Z

Thomas.knbk · Aug 12, 2007, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Pat could be given a banana peel and think there's a build for it that "works".

~Z

I dunno. They usually work for me.

Shmanka · Aug 12, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

I hated Rit spike as much as the next guy, but I admit. This is a tad too far...

The key component of the build was Vital Weapon. They addressed the length of it, but if they addressed the casting time of it as well, along with longer recharges on the spiking skills it would have solved the problem. In my honest opinion, the only build that was ridiculous was the N/A Ritspike HA build which abused Ancestors Rage, and this skill also singlehandedly won GvG's at VoD which SHOULD cause exaustion.

If the skill is weaker then Obsidian Flame, dont make it cause exaustion. Your once again making the class unplayable if you do this.

Patccmoi · Aug 12, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Pat could be given a banana peel and think there's a build for it that "works".

~Z

As long as it has a short enough cooldown, would be great to throw in front of flag runner or to stop monks from kiting. I'm sure a banana peel would be a great asset for many builds!!!

I didn't get any new Rt builds with the update, it's more like many just weren't affected. Most builds that relied on weapon spells are still fine (which is true for most running/splitting Rts that tend to go for Remedy, Nightmare Weap, WoW, some heal, some snare... and actually having Wielder Strike on that bar is possible to finish people and you regen between combat), Rts build for balanced fights using stuff like Warmonger, Splinter, Weap of Warding, Bloodsong, some nukes, etc. can still work, etc.

The new thing that i play around with using Rt skills though is SoI Mesmers. Something like SoI-Clumsiness-CP/Inspired Enchantment-AI-CN-WoW-Splinter-Flesh for instance goes really well. Can easily make good use of Warmonger, or even Brutal on that bar. A SoI Mes like that could buff 3 melee more than SoH bonder could (as long as they're not enchanted ofc) without dedicating more than a skill slot to it. And AI-CN with SoI gives 50-52E back which allows you to spam Clumsiness on recharge (SoI-AI-Deep Freeze-Blurred-Clumsiness-CP-Inspired Enchantment is also damn nice for a Mesmer anti-attacker bar. Inspired Enchantment on SoI is soo nice, if the other team uses Aegis it's really easy to get and you can cast 13s worth of it in 1s...). Lots of fun stuff that became viable with the update. I think that all in all the Channeling nukes that got hit with Exhaustion are dead and won't be used again (because there are other similar options NOT causing exhaustion), but the change is good for the spirits in balanced play, and while i'm not sure it's good for Xinrae's stuff, it can hardly be said that it's bad because those skills were NEVER used in the first place, so at worse nothing changes. I just wish another balancing mechanism was done for Wielder's-Ancestor's, and the one i'd truly favor is lower the damage and give it some utility.

KebabVan · Aug 12, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

great update! all skill changes and vod very nice. exhaustion for rits is a great idea. hexes are still too mindless and too effective in gvg though, if i could have my way they'd ne nerfed to pretty much unplayable.

Makkert · Aug 12, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

credit where credit is due.

this is a solid skill / game-balance, job well done.

~ Makk.

moriz · Aug 12, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

i posted my blessed light suggestion on izzy's section on the official wiki. here's someone's suggestion, which builds upon mine:

"Heal target ally for 10...66...80 health and remove a condition and a hex. If a hex was removed, you lose 5 energy and heal target ally for an additional 10...58...70 health." 5e, 3/4c, 5r

definately better than my suggestion (which did not have the bonus heal). what does everyone else think? good/bad/overpowered?

Neo-LD · Aug 12, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

"Heal target ally for 10...66...80 health and remove a condition and a hex. If a hex was removed, you lose 5 energy and heal target ally for an additional 10...58...70 health." 5e, 3/4c, 5r

Hmm, some quick comparisons to other skills:

If no hex is removed its just a slightly better Dismiss Condition without the enchant requirement. If a hex is removed it has slightly less power than ZB, with, of course, the removals and no chance for energy back.

Thats good, but in either case (above) Im not sure it would deserve elite status and/or measure up to other elites. How about this:

"Remove a condition and hex from target ally. If a condition was removed, heal that ally for 10...76...90 Health. If a hex was removed, lose 5 energy and heal that ally for 10...76...90 Health." 5e, 3/4c, 5r.

Increases the base heal and ties it to the condi-removal. This would make it either a more powerful, self targetable Mend Condition (if no hex is removed), and a fast recharging, powerful healing weapon against hexes. Then it would deserve elite status. And it would see use.

moriz · Aug 12, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

making the base heal conditional on condition removal is a nono. blessed light needs to be a good bar compression skill, meaning that it will have to replace gift of health and dismiss condition, with bonus healing and hex removal added in for it to see play. the niche it will have to fulfill is still the "versatile monk for stand and split" niche, which is currently mostly unoccupied except maybe for ZB (which is not all that hot at the stand).

i'm not really sure what the attribute spread looks like, but i'm willing to accept the base healing to heal 96ish (which is the current) at 14 divine. the bonus can be a bit lower i think.

Neo-LD · Aug 12, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

making the base heal conditional on condition removal is a nono. blessed light needs to be a good bar compression skill, meaning that it will have to replace gift of health and dismiss condition, with bonus healing and hex removal added in for it to see play. the niche it will have to fulfill is still the "versatile monk for stand and split" niche, which is currently mostly unoccupied except maybe for ZB (which is not all that hot at the stand.

i'm not really sure what the attribute spread looks like, but i'm willing to accept the base healing to heal 96ish (which is the current) at 14 divine. the bonus can be a bit lower i think.

I suppose I can agree with that. 96 health at 14 divine would be great, to parallel Gift at 9 healing.

Hell, a self targetable Gift with a free condi-removal attached is almost a playable elite just like that (higher attribute req would be moot). Add on the healing/energy effects of removing a hex, and I'd use it

elite was az · Aug 13, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Overall I thought the skill update had some good ideas but i'm not sure if they will all work well.

I thought some of the assa nerfs help, but I still find the damage output on sp assa a bit high compared to other classes.

The counter to rit spike was interesting, but i'm not sure if it will work properly. I think rits should get some way of dealing with the exhaustion (maybe in spawning points) because of their smaller mana pool than eles, it's a bit harsh at the moment.
Also a few skills that I didn't think deserved nerfs were: wanderlust (elite spirit, easy to kill, already loses health on attack) and spirit rift (can be very easy to dodge). I did think the buffs to xinrae's spells were a good idea and I will use them now. Try not to kill rits cos every says it plz, they still need a place in teams in HA/GVG etc.

Relambrien · Aug 13, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I suppose I can agree with that. 96 health at 14 divine would be great, to parallel Gift at 9 healing.

Hell, a self targetable Gift with a free condi-removal attached is almost a playable elite just like that (higher attribute req would be moot). Add on the healing/energy effects of removing a hex, and I'd use it

After reading the development of this suggestion, here's what I've come up with to incorporate what you guys seem to want (atts 0...12...15):

"Elite Spell. Target ally is healed for 10...94...115 and loses one Condition and one Hex. If a Hex is removed, target ally is healed for an additional 15...63...75 Health and you lose 5 Energy. (Attrib: Divine Favor" 5E, 3/4C, 5R

The main heal is the same as the current heal (according to GWW), and for the bonus I used one of the common value spreads (I was thinking 15...51...60 too). At 14 Divine, this would heal for 179 if it removed a Hex at the cost of 10 Energy, or 108 if it didn't remove a Hex at the cost of 5 Energy. However, in the case a Hex is removed, it can still be cast at 5 Energy (I'm sure you know this, just pointing it out for others who don't).

That heal may be a bit too high along with normal Divine Favor bonus, so perhaps tuning down the main heal to around 90 at 14 Divine would be best, maybe 15...83...100 like WoH.

In this case, it would heal for 94 at 14 Divine, plus 71 from the bonus heal, and 44 from Divine Favor, resulting in 209 points of healing, a condition removal, and a hex removal, all in a 10 Energy spell that can be cast at 5 Energy.

In that case, perhaps it would be better to consider 15...51...60 for the bonus heal, in which case you would get only 57 from the bonus heal, resulting in 195 points of Healing, a condition removal, and a Hex removal in a 10 Energy spell that can be cast at 5 Energy.

Now that I've illustrated some possibilities for the type of mechanic you guys have been discussing, you can start determining which of the possibilities is closest to what you determine would be best.

moriz · Aug 13, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

when i first started to mess around with the blessed light idea, it was basically a 95ish heal at 14 divine, removes 1 condition and removes a hex for 5 additional energy.

now, this skill is not just a good adaptable bar compression skill, but a massive kickass heal. in the divine attribute to boot. in truth, i'm fine with whatever it actually comes out to be, as long as it keeps the 5 energy base with a base heal of 95ish.

Zuranthium · Aug 13, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Just keep it the way it is now but add a "you gain 3 energy" clause that is totally non-conditional. These "lose 5 nrg" suggestions are the opposite of where it needs to be going, IMO. Blessed Light needs to act as hex removal for less than 10 energy.

Going back to the Rit changes...I like Ancestor's Rage in the new form better. It works better on a bar like this for a balanced team....

Rt/E, 14 Channeling, 13 Restoration, 4 Spawning

Ancestor's Rage
Channeled Strike
Wielder's Boon
Weapon of Warding
Weapon of Fury
Protective Was Kaolai
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Flesh of My Flesh/Rez Sig

....because the new lesser cost of 5 energy is more beneficial than the negative drawback of the exhaustion, which doesn't matter so much anyway considering you use the skill as a spike-assist, not on recharge as constant pressure (although there are other balance tweaks that build still needs to be really worthy of GvG -- Spawning Power having an effect on item spells, in the form of +energy and health when an item is held, and also a longer duration on Weapon of Fury).

Wielder's Strike, on the other hand, most definitely should not have exhaustion. That skill in general is very confused, though. You simply can not have spells that are quick-recharge, 1 second cast, AND deal a ton of damage. Targeted damage spells are either spike (ie. MUST have a 2 second cast, unless it's an Elite) or pressure (AOE damage and/or quicker cast time and recharge). The Channeling line is most definitely not in need of more spike-oriented spells, so I would suggest that Wielder's Strike has the exhaustion removed and the conditional bonus damage cut in half.

Exhaustion on Rit Spirits is a big no-no but I suppose it doesn't even really matter at the moment since they are not worth using in GvG anyway and need a big re-vamp (faster cast times and recharges and a max of 3 allied Rit spirits in one area).

~Z

moriz · Aug 13, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Just keep it the way it is now but add a "you gain 3 energy" clause that is totally non-conditional. These "lose 5 nrg" suggestions are the opposite of where it needs to be going, IMO. Blessed Light needs to act as hex removal for less than 10 energy.
~Z

there are plenty of hex removals that are less than 10 energy. the new remove hex comes to mind. even if you want something that can remove both a hex and a condition, which one is better: divert hexes for 10 energy and removes up to 3 hexes and conditions, or your blessed light for 10-3 energy and only removes one of each.

trust me, blessed light needs to be a bar compression skill. if not, we might as well remove it from the game.

Zuranthium · Aug 13, 2007, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Divert Hexes requires hexes on the person to heal and to remove conditions. I'm not disagreeing that BL needs to be bar compression...I'm saying that it WON'T be if it's still costing 10 to remove just a hex. Funny you bring up Divert Hexes, though, because THAT's the skill which should be costing 5 and having an extra conditional "you lose 5 energy" clause (ie. if you remove more than 1 hex).

~Z

moriz · Aug 13, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

blessed light can't be 10 energy and a bar compression skill at the same time. that's why it's not being used as such (or at all) right now. even if it gives energy back unconditionally, you still need to fork out the 10 energy to activate it, which makes it quite bad. the way to think about this skill is this: will it replace GoH? at 10 energy initially, definately no. will it replace dismiss condition? at 10 energy initially, definately no. therefore, the idea of it costing 10 energy and gives energy back unconditionally won't work.

as for divert hexes removing conditions only with hexes... if there's only conditions, the RC or draw guy will mop it up.

the idea currently being bounced around will give a possible 190ish heal if removed a hex, with a possible energy cost of 5 (with weapon swaps), which is good enough for it to be run in the current monking meta.

Zuranthium · Aug 13, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

blessed light can't be 10 energy and a bar compression skill at the same time. that's why it's not being used as such (or at all) right now. even if it gives energy back unconditionally, you still need to fork out the 10 energy to activate it, which makes it quite bad. the way to think about this skill is this: will it replace GoH? at 10 energy initially, definately no. will it replace dismiss condition? at 10 energy initially, definately no. therefore, the idea of it costing 10 energy and gives energy back unconditionally won't work.

I believe you're totally wrong. BL at 10 energy and giving 3 back when used would make it very compatible with Divine Spirit and Glyph of Lesser Energy.

Also, the skill should not be acting as your only Condi removal on the bar. No BL bar has ever been built like that and it would be a mistake if you went in such a route.

~Z